Something extra about this topic is: What is the real value for any given object.
The cost of the same fruit can be very different in a village vs a big city. Or, the same amount of money can provide you totally different experiences depending where you are.
Also what people need is very subjective. There are people who can live happier with less money in poor countries than in rich ones.
Even in rich countries, artists for example can live without much, just enough to continue creating.
Oh, yes, the challenge of the "real value" of an object is really confusing when you really think about it. It's similar to time - time is much more complicated when you sit down and really think about it.
You are so right.
In some regards, I had hoped things like crypto currency might somehow help normalize value and currency further across location, but I still don't feel confident enough in crypto as a system - my own feeling, maybe it could be a solution.
That Human Scale Development paper talks more about community working together to understand local needs and then working from that. I liked the nature of that idea, it doesn't condemn large scale organization - we need that too, but it provides a framework for thinking at a scale that we can reason about better and more directly impacts our immediate surroundings. Yet, this idea seems to not have fully flourished as far as I can tell, although it is very much alive.
You heard how much this is on my mind just today! I think part of it comes from following my dreams in years past, failing, and then finding myself in scary situations. Money has such a hold on me because my loved one's health is intrinsically tied to it. I agree it *shouldn't* be this powerful of a force in my life, but, unfortunately, to follow other dreams- like having kids - it *has* to be ever-present in my decision-making.
Thank you so much for your thoughtful post, Jon! I look forward to becoming closer friends as time goes on 💛
I completely agree. It is a complex relationship with money, especially when we have no choice. I have and will continue to wrestle with this subject... probably for the rest of my life.
I am eager to become closer friends with you as well, and happy to listen/discuss this and other things more any time. :). Looking forward to it!
I think money and time , both, morph according to our perception.
I used to have a life where I didn't have to worry about money. Then my life changed, and the money bit got super stressful. In the middle of that stress I was taking long calming breaths and observing, as objectively as possible. And I found out that what we *need* is very different from what we've been taught we need.
Shelter, clothing and food are the basics. And even within these basics there's a world to discover without sacrificing any comfort at all - actually I find building, often with natural and second hand materials, to be extremely satisfying. Clothing=figuring out that one. Food; here in the countryside food is seasonal (and fresh and nutritious), so you can't have everything, all the time. But when it's in season, oh boy, there's an abundance that sometimes two people can't process in time, sharing with neighbors is common practice and the rest goes to the chicken and wildlife.
I think that the abundance as in nature, is also true when it comes to money.
The real problem is distribution.
Looking very much forward to reading more of your vocational posts! Follow the passion ;)
Nina, your comment is a beautiful addition.. especially about money/time morphing according to our perception.
I tried to say in the post that I didn't want to make commentary about capitalism etc. - money/currency is useful as the purpose of exchange when barter/trade or self-sufficiency becomes too difficult.
But, as you point out (and it is so interesting to see how you are adapting and bring resilient) - we did manage to survive before money by being in better balance with nature... I think somehow we swung too hard into a system where money was the main dependency and self sufficiency using your own skills and nature went out the window.
Well, I know that we did in the US at least for sure.
It feels like high time to bring some balance back. Doing things for others while doing things for self sufficiency feels more like living than purely working for a large faceless corporation. Even better if what you do for yourself leads to abundance to share.
If there is anything that your comment triggered for me, it was to remember that sharing and community, worth respect for nature is a powerful combination.
Side note- in recent research I learned something I didn't know. In the US tax code, all trade/barter is meant to be taxed, even for the smallest thing. I never knew that, and at small scale, nobody pays taxes. But I was kind of shocked to learn that, it seems draconian and counterintuitive to establishing resilient people.
Jon, I totally agree with you about money being a useful means of exchange when barter/trade doesn't work out.
I think that the downhill ride begun in the 1950's with all kinds of fun, useful and beautiful! things one could buy - and if the neighbours had it, we wanted it as well.
In our time influencers have taken the place of neighbours, and all those social media algorithms are literally feeding us what we'd like to have even though we didn't know it even existed before (I find myself wanting a grain mill 🙄).
It's totally crazy and wicked that one is asked to pay taxes over barter deals!
The more I think about it, the crazier the whole tax system IS as well.
I really appreciate the conversation and thinking about these things together, in a personal, original manner. The word "downsizing" popped into my mind, but I discarded of it simply because it has been such a popular word lately that it has almost lost its meaning.
I think the time is ripe for us all to have good, honest, open conversations, get rid of labels and be curious about what might fit our personal situation 😃.
I'm pretty sure you're exactly right about the 1950s.
Back in 2002 I was in university, where I read the book (long) Bowling Alone. It talks about the fracturing of US civil society due to the rise in television and "keeping up with the Joneses", right in the timeframe you mentioned.
The idea is that people used to be part of social clubs for bowling, but TV evaporated that.
I have recently seen that book (which was pretty obscure when I read it) popping up in articles and posts online. I'm wondering if we're in some kind of reaction to all that has happened to humanity the last years... and suddenly that book and the ideas seem relevant to people.
I guess it's good that the book was written and out there for people to find when they needed it!
I will so this- it's nice to discuss and work on figuring this out together! At least that is some progress!
Something extra about this topic is: What is the real value for any given object.
The cost of the same fruit can be very different in a village vs a big city. Or, the same amount of money can provide you totally different experiences depending where you are.
Also what people need is very subjective. There are people who can live happier with less money in poor countries than in rich ones.
Even in rich countries, artists for example can live without much, just enough to continue creating.
Indeed, money as a topic is fascinating/terrible.
Oh, yes, the challenge of the "real value" of an object is really confusing when you really think about it. It's similar to time - time is much more complicated when you sit down and really think about it.
You are so right.
In some regards, I had hoped things like crypto currency might somehow help normalize value and currency further across location, but I still don't feel confident enough in crypto as a system - my own feeling, maybe it could be a solution.
That Human Scale Development paper talks more about community working together to understand local needs and then working from that. I liked the nature of that idea, it doesn't condemn large scale organization - we need that too, but it provides a framework for thinking at a scale that we can reason about better and more directly impacts our immediate surroundings. Yet, this idea seems to not have fully flourished as far as I can tell, although it is very much alive.
You heard how much this is on my mind just today! I think part of it comes from following my dreams in years past, failing, and then finding myself in scary situations. Money has such a hold on me because my loved one's health is intrinsically tied to it. I agree it *shouldn't* be this powerful of a force in my life, but, unfortunately, to follow other dreams- like having kids - it *has* to be ever-present in my decision-making.
Thank you so much for your thoughtful post, Jon! I look forward to becoming closer friends as time goes on 💛
I completely agree. It is a complex relationship with money, especially when we have no choice. I have and will continue to wrestle with this subject... probably for the rest of my life.
I am eager to become closer friends with you as well, and happy to listen/discuss this and other things more any time. :). Looking forward to it!
What a fascinating - and a bit scary - post, Jon!
I think money and time , both, morph according to our perception.
I used to have a life where I didn't have to worry about money. Then my life changed, and the money bit got super stressful. In the middle of that stress I was taking long calming breaths and observing, as objectively as possible. And I found out that what we *need* is very different from what we've been taught we need.
Shelter, clothing and food are the basics. And even within these basics there's a world to discover without sacrificing any comfort at all - actually I find building, often with natural and second hand materials, to be extremely satisfying. Clothing=figuring out that one. Food; here in the countryside food is seasonal (and fresh and nutritious), so you can't have everything, all the time. But when it's in season, oh boy, there's an abundance that sometimes two people can't process in time, sharing with neighbors is common practice and the rest goes to the chicken and wildlife.
I think that the abundance as in nature, is also true when it comes to money.
The real problem is distribution.
Looking very much forward to reading more of your vocational posts! Follow the passion ;)
Nina, your comment is a beautiful addition.. especially about money/time morphing according to our perception.
I tried to say in the post that I didn't want to make commentary about capitalism etc. - money/currency is useful as the purpose of exchange when barter/trade or self-sufficiency becomes too difficult.
But, as you point out (and it is so interesting to see how you are adapting and bring resilient) - we did manage to survive before money by being in better balance with nature... I think somehow we swung too hard into a system where money was the main dependency and self sufficiency using your own skills and nature went out the window.
Well, I know that we did in the US at least for sure.
It feels like high time to bring some balance back. Doing things for others while doing things for self sufficiency feels more like living than purely working for a large faceless corporation. Even better if what you do for yourself leads to abundance to share.
If there is anything that your comment triggered for me, it was to remember that sharing and community, worth respect for nature is a powerful combination.
Side note- in recent research I learned something I didn't know. In the US tax code, all trade/barter is meant to be taxed, even for the smallest thing. I never knew that, and at small scale, nobody pays taxes. But I was kind of shocked to learn that, it seems draconian and counterintuitive to establishing resilient people.
Jon, I totally agree with you about money being a useful means of exchange when barter/trade doesn't work out.
I think that the downhill ride begun in the 1950's with all kinds of fun, useful and beautiful! things one could buy - and if the neighbours had it, we wanted it as well.
In our time influencers have taken the place of neighbours, and all those social media algorithms are literally feeding us what we'd like to have even though we didn't know it even existed before (I find myself wanting a grain mill 🙄).
It's totally crazy and wicked that one is asked to pay taxes over barter deals!
The more I think about it, the crazier the whole tax system IS as well.
I really appreciate the conversation and thinking about these things together, in a personal, original manner. The word "downsizing" popped into my mind, but I discarded of it simply because it has been such a popular word lately that it has almost lost its meaning.
I think the time is ripe for us all to have good, honest, open conversations, get rid of labels and be curious about what might fit our personal situation 😃.
I'm pretty sure you're exactly right about the 1950s.
Back in 2002 I was in university, where I read the book (long) Bowling Alone. It talks about the fracturing of US civil society due to the rise in television and "keeping up with the Joneses", right in the timeframe you mentioned.
The idea is that people used to be part of social clubs for bowling, but TV evaporated that.
I have recently seen that book (which was pretty obscure when I read it) popping up in articles and posts online. I'm wondering if we're in some kind of reaction to all that has happened to humanity the last years... and suddenly that book and the ideas seem relevant to people.
I guess it's good that the book was written and out there for people to find when they needed it!
I will so this- it's nice to discuss and work on figuring this out together! At least that is some progress!
I will say* this - sorry for my typos, I realized I can't edit my comments!
First TV, then social media... we're being driven apart by jealousy and echo chambers-thinking. Until we're not anymore :)
I think the pendulum has swung too far already and we're starting to ask all the right questions as humanity!